
SmartBrief recently spoke with Dr. Jonah Schenker, the district superintendent of Ulster BOCES and an advocate for deeper learning. Click the screenshot above to watch the interview. The transcript is below. You can learn more about his views on deeper learning and deeper leading in a webinar and two-part interview we did with Schenker last year.
Diane Harrington: Hello, I’m Diane Harrington, an education editor for Smart Brief. We’re talking today to Dr. Jonah Schenker, the district superintendent of Ulster BOCES in upstate New York. He serves a dual role as the state education commissioner’s representative for eight local component school districts in the region. And as chief executive officer of BOCES, Jonah is a huge proponent of a concept called deeper learning.
You may have heard him talk about it in a SmartBrief webinar just last summer before July’s inaugural Deeper Learning New York Conference. He’s here today to talk to us more about deeper learning and how educators can embrace it in 2025.
Jonah, Deeper Learning is all about reimagining education and what better time to reimagine it and affect change than a new year. Can you tell us briefly what deeper learning is and why it’s important and also how it differs from deeper leading?
Jonah Schenker: Sure thing. First, thank you for having me on. Always a pleasure to sit with folks who are asking questions and curious about education, deeper leading, deeper learning and everything that wraps around that.
So, pretty simple. Lemme just start out first around the differences. Deeper learning: When we’re talking about the conditions that are touching students that are in the classroom and the conditions that we also have to create for adults. When adults are learning and we’re embracing these core concepts, in turn, those environments are transferred and translated and the whole ecosystem of school becomes about learning. So the learning aspect is adult-facing, student-facing and also for the adults that don’t have direct interactions with students.
We have to be sure that our leaders understand how to build conditions in their schools, push against some of the archaic practices. … What do we have to undo that we’ve done to learning to get back to a really simple set of value dispositions that are inherent in learning that we’ve undone.
— Jonah Schenker
The deeper leading concept is, and I think so often in schools, we talk about all the things that have to happen in a classroom between a teacher and a student. And I always say that that is the most impactful relationship. That’s where the magic happens. The research states that’s where the growth happens. But we have to be sure that our leaders understand how to build conditions in their schools, push against some of the archaic practices that really push against belonging and access and equity that are just inherent in this industrial model so that these conditions permeate, again, adult environments, student environments and really school culture and well-being. And really what it is about is not, so this is a new way of talking about this. We’re always talking about what do we have to add to schools. And so I’m beginning to talk about actually what do we have to take away? What do we have to undo that we’ve done to learning to get back to a really simple set of value dispositions that are inherent in learning that we’ve undone.
And it’s about relationships, it’s about belonging, it’s about a sense of purpose, it’s about expertise and creating environments where all learners, students and adults can access those through real experiences and getting feedback and critique on their learning, not for numeric placement on a scale, but to promote continuing to grow.
And so you’ll hear, when you hear deeper learning and leading, you’ll hear higher-order thinking. You’ll think about the skills or dispositions that we need to be thinking about that are transferable for students to be successful in their future. And, before I turn it back over to you, another new addition to the thinking around this is we also hear, how do we prepare students for their future? There’s an assumption in that what we have or what they’re exiting to is working. And I won’t bring the outside world of politics into this discussion. I’ll leave it where I’m not thinking that regardless of where you sit, that the things are well out there in this wide world there. It is a rapidly changing tense. We know increased social emotional needs of all humans. There is mass tension. And so these skills I’m thinking about now are really about giving students and setting them up to be the designers of a new future, one that is better than we currently exist, that are based again, around some of those I think core things that we all aspire to, which is acceptance and belonging success, both individually, financially. Everybody can see themselves as having a viable future that they can contribute to for them, family, friends and community.
Harrington: Just a quick follow up to that: I know that a lot of people tend to be kind of resistant, especially in education, to new things. It’s like, oh my gosh, this is the way we’ve learned how to do it and we want to going forward. Is it fair to say that deeper learning and deeper leading are more about mindset than tactics?
“We don’t have a teacher or educator problem. We have a container issue. That is, the container in which we ask them to do their job is outdated and flawed.”
— Jonah Schenker
Schenker: Yeah. So first, yes. Right, and I think when we think about learning institutions, learning is about growth and change, and we’re trying to do that. And, again, these are broad statements. So let me disclose that there are so many beautiful, wonderful things happening. I always make it a point to double down on this concept that we don’t have a teacher or educator problem. We have a container issue. That is, the container in which we ask them to do their job is outdated and flawed.
So, with that, this concept of learning and change and shift as a constant, the mindset we need to move to is really around becoming okay with that. And not just saying you have to be OK with change, but what does it look like for a system that has educators in it to support them so that they can change? Because it’s very rare that I have the opportunity to work with school leaders, school educators, and again, another kind of disclosure when I talk about teachers really talking about anybody who touched the life of a child through a school either directly or indirectly. We just can’t go through the list of them all. So that’s the catchall. But I’ve, I’ve never had a conversation where I said, “Let’s understand where we need to go. Let’s talk about that. Let’s (talk about) that future. Here’s how I plan to be able to support that work. Here’s how we’re going to resource towards it. Here’s how we’re going to allow planning,” where they said, “No, thank you. That doesn’t sound good. I just want to do that.”
So the resistance isn’t based on a movement from the field. It’s about supporting people to create a system that’s OK with change. And so I think that’s the difference and that’s the mindset when those conditions are created, and going back to your question, deeper leading is around providing leadership with the tools, dispositions to be able to create those conditions and then anything’s possible. However, and there isn’t a prescription in this. However, a unique school or community thinks about implementing and actualizing the constants which need to be true in it, then that’s a beautiful thing.
It’s not about one type of community partner or industry partner or academic area or experience or expertise. It can be done through the arts. It can be done through career and technical education. It can be done in special education. And when you walk into these different environments upon first glance into a system, you’ll see the medium in which they’re going at this. As you begin to talk to students, as you begin to talk to staff, those constants begin to emerge, those design principles, those value dispositions. This is across whether, again, whether it’s a music school, a theater school, a technical school that embraces these philosophies, you’re going to hear about intentionality of relationships, you’re going to hear about intentionality of the elements of project-based learning that support equity work, and they’re all going to do it different. And so again, it’s not a prescription and a field playbook guidebook on how to do it. It’s about a process to allow a system to design around these design principles, value dispositions and constants.
We’ll be teaching this fall’s kindergartners for the jobs and environment that don’t yet exist yet.
— Jonah Schenker
Harrington: What really struck me with what you just said was anything is possible, because we have been focused for a couple of years now on making sure that we let students know that anything is possible, and now this deeper learning concept is turning that back onto the educators and telling them that anything is possible.
Schenker: Yeah, I want to hold that phrase that you lifted out. Anything is possible when we’re thinking about preparation of students for whatever is next: two-year, four-year, straight into the workforce, military and what have you in the next three, five, 10, 12 years. And when we think about at the end of this year, next September or August, depending on kind of where you are in the country, a set of kindergarten students are going to roll into our schools in this country, and they’ll progress through their 12-, 13-year journey, exiting 13 years from now. So we ought to be thinking about the skills and dispositions to prepare them for anything as possible that we know. I mean, what our graduating seniors are stepping into now is greatly different. And in fact, those kindergarten students, the jobs and environment in which they will exit doesn’t exist yet.
Harrington: And the whole, “anything is possible.” It’s a little nerve-wracking to not know what you’re teaching them to do for the future. We don’t know the future, but at the same time, with anything is possible, that lets you teach anything and everything and just really make their minds bloom.
Schenker: That’s spot on.
Harrington: Tell me a little bit about that conference last July. Was it, how did that go? Did you learn any interesting lessons?
Schenker: So, Leading for Deeper Learning Conference here, kickoff in New York, was a fantastic event. It was
wrapped around and built on the same concepts. So, when we think about some of the differences of when you go to a professional conference or this conference and conferences that embrace against these same kind of dispositions, we are ensuring that we’re setting up the two-day environment for the learners to model exactly what we’re talking about and hoping for to see grow in their environments.
And, so again, it’s repetitive, but the conference you could walk through as an observer over two days and look at intentionality around relationship building. You can see the intentionality around bringing in outside experts around longer periods of learning that embrace project work, which is launch of an idea iteration and design tuning and reflection, and then really a critical element, which is celebrations of learning. We don’t do all of this and then just walk away, but really taking the time to elevate that learning.
Those are the same four principles that we talk about in our classrooms here at Ulster BOCES. Those are the same four principles that we talk about when we’re going to build a meeting for non-educators here. Those are the critical design elements to ensure that people have purpose, that they belong again, that there’s access or there’s opportunity for them to bring in their own expertise, and we make sure that we’re lifting up and celebrating that learning of, again, whether it’s an hour, two-hour, one-day or two-day event.
On the planning side, always lots to learn. Foundational year is an important year, and another principle of this work is the curation of work. So it wasn’t planned and just let go. It was really intentional about creating the workflows, the documents, the systems and the recording of our process so that we curate it so that it doesn’t exist between the five, 10 — there was many more people involved — folks who if they leave and move on, we got to kind of figure this out. But it is the curation of work that allows us to bring new people in and kind of tell the story of who we are and where we came from, and then allow them to enter and help co-author the next iterations.
And that, again, too, is the creation, the thinking and design, the creation, the implementation are a replication of the project cycle. So now we take everything that we did last year and what we call tune it, which is we use protocols to evaluate and reflect on all of those components. There’s voices that we didn’t get to bring in because there always are additional voices we want to include to design further and iterate, and that will lead up to leading for Deeper Learning 2.0, which is this July in Kingston (N.Y.) again.
And so it was again from an operational and service delivery and implementation, lots of learning, lots of awesome ideas, and then feedback from participants was really, really phenomenal. They could feel the intentionality of the elements that we sought to bring forward and lift up.
Harrington: That’s great. Tell me a little bit about how Smart Brief Education readers can promote deeper learning and deeper leading in 2025.
Schenker: Yeah, so I always talk about innovation being a lonely place within a large system of rigidity and history and legacy. And so you have pockets, you have full systems that are embracing shift and change, and that’s a beautiful thing. You have other systems where you have one or two educators that are trying to move the needle. And really what this and the Deeper Learning network through High Tech High is about is connecting those voices, building coalitions, activating more voice to, again, refine and do that design work always and ongoing.
So the easiest way really is through for the New York Deeper Learning Conference and to get connected with myself and the leadership team here for visits and walk-throughs and professional development is through our UlsterBOCES.org website, professional learning that will take you to our Educator Edge division. That is the division that does all professional learning as an arm of our agency. It’s about jumping in and, once you’re in, again, the design of it is to keep building coalitions, continuing to connect the fractals and expand the network across the country. So we have like-minded people in the room having conversations with those who need to be inspired or those who don’t know how to get connected. So it isn’t a club, it’s a network, and expansion is a beautiful thing.
Deeper Learning conferences are not about purchasing something, but inspiration about, “How can I bring this and enhance the system that I exist in,” whether it’s a classroom, a building or a system.
— Jonah Schenker
Harrington: I love that. The network concept. And this isn’t the only Deeper Learning conference in the country, is it?
Schenker: No. Deeper Learning in San Diego at the High Tech High campus is the largest of conferences and has the longest run, and that takes place this spring. Again, if you just Google High Tech High and look for their Deeper Learning conference, that brings together about 1,500 educators from around the world, and there is sessions that are focused directly on classrooms to leadership. It is a fantastic experience.
Again, it’s not a conference where you’re going to go hear the keynote and then just sign up for 15 different sessions. You’re going to go there, you’re going to connect with folks. There are keynotes and voices that are lifted up to set a perspective of the experience. And then you’re in it, and you’re doing work, and you leave at the end with a larger, connected network. Ideas that aren’t, again, about purchasing something, but inspiration about how can I bring this and enhance the system that I kind of exist in. Again, whether it’s a classroom, a building, or a system. So that’s really a beautiful, beautiful experience if you can make your way out to San Diego, which is an equally beautiful city.
Harrington: Well, that sounds like a really great point to end on. I’m so glad that you were able to talk with SmartBrief today, and you’re a busy man, so we really appreciate your time and insights. If there’s anything else you’d like to add, that would be great. Otherwise, we can call it a day.
Schenker: No, thank you. I appreciate the platform and the questions that you all bring on a constant basis to promote amazing things that are happening across the country. So I appreciate you all.
Opinions expressed by SmartBrief contributors are their own.
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